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	<title>Comments on: Why hash tags are broken, and ideas for what to do instead.</title>
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	<link>http://dynamicorange.com/2009/07/01/why-hash-tags-are-broken/</link>
	<description>A Low-Frequency Thunk by Rob Styles.</description>
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		<title>By: Moseley Barcamp Roundup « Moseley Barcamp</title>
		<link>http://dynamicorange.com/2009/07/01/why-hash-tags-are-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-8258</link>
		<dc:creator>Moseley Barcamp Roundup « Moseley Barcamp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dynamicorange.com/?p=504#comment-8258</guid>
		<description>[...] Rob Styles [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Rob Styles [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Styles</title>
		<link>http://dynamicorange.com/2009/07/01/why-hash-tags-are-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-8095</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Styles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 06:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dynamicorange.com/?p=504#comment-8095</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, ambiguity in the moment can be overcome through the use of registries, but that introduces a need to know about a registry. There are some already, I just defined mbcamp on tagdef.com: http://tagdef.com/mbcamp

I&#039;ve only defined it on tagdef.com though, any others out there continue to lack a definition.

Defining the tag that way also doesn&#039;t prevent others from using it for another purpose, or from abusing it with spam. It confers no degree of uniqueness or ownership. And, where more than one definition exists, it provides no mechanism for deciding which bits of content were referring to which definition when they were tagged.

Centralised approaches, and approaches that need prior knowledge of a specific service, are less useful on the web than mechanisms that are de-centralised and discoverable through the normal mechanism of following a link...

We already have a great, well-understood, scalable, de-centralised naming and lookup mechanism. It&#039;s called the web. Why tey to invent another on top of it - which is what hashtags are.

I agree with you, and with Andy Powell&#039;s comments on twitter that at this point putting URLs into twitter, or using them as tags on Flickr, is harder than using simple word tagging. But, the mechanisms for adding links to stuff are all over the place in other tools, there are well understood interaction design patterns to make that easy.

With good UI design we could be using the web for tagging, rather than inventing a different linking mechanism on top of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, ambiguity in the moment can be overcome through the use of registries, but that introduces a need to know about a registry. There are some already, I just defined mbcamp on tagdef.com: <a href="http://tagdef.com/mbcamp" rel="nofollow">http://tagdef.com/mbcamp</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve only defined it on tagdef.com though, any others out there continue to lack a definition.</p>
<p>Defining the tag that way also doesn&#8217;t prevent others from using it for another purpose, or from abusing it with spam. It confers no degree of uniqueness or ownership. And, where more than one definition exists, it provides no mechanism for deciding which bits of content were referring to which definition when they were tagged.</p>
<p>Centralised approaches, and approaches that need prior knowledge of a specific service, are less useful on the web than mechanisms that are de-centralised and discoverable through the normal mechanism of following a link&#8230;</p>
<p>We already have a great, well-understood, scalable, de-centralised naming and lookup mechanism. It&#8217;s called the web. Why tey to invent another on top of it &#8211; which is what hashtags are.</p>
<p>I agree with you, and with Andy Powell&#8217;s comments on twitter that at this point putting URLs into twitter, or using them as tags on Flickr, is harder than using simple word tagging. But, the mechanisms for adding links to stuff are all over the place in other tools, there are well understood interaction design patterns to make that easy.</p>
<p>With good UI design we could be using the web for tagging, rather than inventing a different linking mechanism on top of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Hellman</title>
		<link>http://dynamicorange.com/2009/07/01/why-hash-tags-are-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-8079</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Hellman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:45:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dynamicorange.com/?p=504#comment-8079</guid>
		<description>Rob,

For now, I&#039;ve decided that I&#039;m blogging!

Ambiguity in the moment can be addressed by the adoption of dictionaries/registries; you can then synthesize a GUID with a timestamp if you need it- a similar approach can be used for airline flights, which I think is a much better analogy than what I thought of. For both airline flights and twitter hashtags, the overriding consideration has to be user acceptance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob,</p>
<p>For now, I&#8217;ve decided that I&#8217;m blogging!</p>
<p>Ambiguity in the moment can be addressed by the adoption of dictionaries/registries; you can then synthesize a GUID with a timestamp if you need it- a similar approach can be used for airline flights, which I think is a much better analogy than what I thought of. For both airline flights and twitter hashtags, the overriding consideration has to be user acceptance.</p>
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		<title>By: Laurian Gridinoc</title>
		<link>http://dynamicorange.com/2009/07/01/why-hash-tags-are-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-8066</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurian Gridinoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:36:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dynamicorange.com/?p=504#comment-8066</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m currently using a 22 char rendering of UUID (base64) but I was wondering if there is any other alternatives for shorter random generated unique ids; for example for Version 1 UUIDs the MAC can be dropped if you use them in an http URI (assume that domain name will substitute MAC&#039;s function)…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m currently using a 22 char rendering of UUID (base64) but I was wondering if there is any other alternatives for shorter random generated unique ids; for example for Version 1 UUIDs the MAC can be dropped if you use them in an http URI (assume that domain name will substitute MAC&#8217;s function)…</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Powell</title>
		<link>http://dynamicorange.com/2009/07/01/why-hash-tags-are-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-8065</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Powell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dynamicorange.com/?p=504#comment-8065</guid>
		<description>Rob,
My gut feel is that there&#039;s a significant danger of over-engineering the solution here...

In your list of requirements, 5 (&quot;That the tag can be used anywhere on the web easily&quot;) has to come first - and it has to come first by quite a long way... because otherwise you just have something which isn&#039;t usable and therefore won&#039;t get used.

Still, I suppose that one way of ensuring uniqueness is to make sure that no-one ever bothers to create tags in the first place!? :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob,<br />
My gut feel is that there&#8217;s a significant danger of over-engineering the solution here&#8230;</p>
<p>In your list of requirements, 5 (&#8221;That the tag can be used anywhere on the web easily&#8221;) has to come first &#8211; and it has to come first by quite a long way&#8230; because otherwise you just have something which isn&#8217;t usable and therefore won&#8217;t get used.</p>
<p>Still, I suppose that one way of ensuring uniqueness is to make sure that no-one ever bothers to create tags in the first place!? :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Styles</title>
		<link>http://dynamicorange.com/2009/07/01/why-hash-tags-are-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-8064</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Styles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dynamicorange.com/?p=504#comment-8064</guid>
		<description>@Laurian, yes you&#039;re quite right. I&#039;d considered the risk of the tags being offensive but had overlooked them being misleading!

I&#039;m not really suggesting using a broader character set and GUIDs as that has some real issues. It was really an exploration of what we really want from tagging, which in my mind comes down to tagging with URIs as Linked Data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Laurian, yes you&#8217;re quite right. I&#8217;d considered the risk of the tags being offensive but had overlooked them being misleading!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not really suggesting using a broader character set and GUIDs as that has some real issues. It was really an exploration of what we really want from tagging, which in my mind comes down to tagging with URIs as Linked Data.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Styles</title>
		<link>http://dynamicorange.com/2009/07/01/why-hash-tags-are-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-8063</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Styles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dynamicorange.com/?p=504#comment-8063</guid>
		<description>Hey Eric, good to hear from you. Deciding what to do now you&#039;re out of the big house?

I do think ambiguity over time is sometimes an issue, but ambiguity in the moment is also an issue and comes from the tension between uniqueness and length that twitter introduces.

I don&#039;t think that&#039;s the same as saying longitude is ambiguous over latitude, it&#039;s more like saying my surname alone is not enough to identify me. Or perhaps, a flight number is not enough to catch the plane, you also need to know the date and time...

My reference to ASCII was simply that the usual way to represent a GUID is as an ASCII encoded hexadecimal string, but that&#039;s not the only way you can do it. I&#039;m fully aware that UTF8 is an encoding, I&#039;m not worried about the language being sloppy as it&#039;s not important for the point of this post.

You&#039;re quite right that Unicode uses a 2 byte character id rather than a 4 byte one, my bad as I was working with the hex characters visually, I&#039;ve corrected that now.

Fundamentally, though, my point is that hashtags are a way of marking content that could be done better using URIs. If people started using URIs you can be sure that UIs would evolve to make it easier too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Eric, good to hear from you. Deciding what to do now you&#8217;re out of the big house?</p>
<p>I do think ambiguity over time is sometimes an issue, but ambiguity in the moment is also an issue and comes from the tension between uniqueness and length that twitter introduces.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s the same as saying longitude is ambiguous over latitude, it&#8217;s more like saying my surname alone is not enough to identify me. Or perhaps, a flight number is not enough to catch the plane, you also need to know the date and time&#8230;</p>
<p>My reference to ASCII was simply that the usual way to represent a GUID is as an ASCII encoded hexadecimal string, but that&#8217;s not the only way you can do it. I&#8217;m fully aware that UTF8 is an encoding, I&#8217;m not worried about the language being sloppy as it&#8217;s not important for the point of this post.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re quite right that Unicode uses a 2 byte character id rather than a 4 byte one, my bad as I was working with the hex characters visually, I&#8217;ve corrected that now.</p>
<p>Fundamentally, though, my point is that hashtags are a way of marking content that could be done better using URIs. If people started using URIs you can be sure that UIs would evolve to make it easier too.</p>
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		<title>By: Laurian Gridinoc</title>
		<link>http://dynamicorange.com/2009/07/01/why-hash-tags-are-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-8062</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurian Gridinoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:05:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dynamicorange.com/?p=504#comment-8062</guid>
		<description>One problem (which is also valid with any URL shortner) is when the UUID will yield something meaningful to a specific language, and you will be tagging a dog with a &quot;cat&quot;… In ASCII at least you can reduce your set to omit let sat vowels to avoid that or worse have a dictionary as blacklist, in an asian language each character has meaning and your hashtags will actually increase the ambiguity (from an human point of view). It would be interesting to restrict to graphical symbols in the unicode spectrum yielding &quot;alien-like&quot; tags #⍔⌊⏏⎀☢☕, looking at these symbols I wonder if people use emoji for tagging…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One problem (which is also valid with any URL shortner) is when the UUID will yield something meaningful to a specific language, and you will be tagging a dog with a &#8220;cat&#8221;… In ASCII at least you can reduce your set to omit let sat vowels to avoid that or worse have a dictionary as blacklist, in an asian language each character has meaning and your hashtags will actually increase the ambiguity (from an human point of view). It would be interesting to restrict to graphical symbols in the unicode spectrum yielding &#8220;alien-like&#8221; tags #⍔⌊⏏⎀☢☕, looking at these symbols I wonder if people use emoji for tagging…</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Hellman</title>
		<link>http://dynamicorange.com/2009/07/01/why-hash-tags-are-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-8061</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Hellman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:53:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dynamicorange.com/?p=504#comment-8061</guid>
		<description>Rob,

Let me get this straight: you think hashtags are broken because they are ambiguous over time? Isn&#039;t that a bit like saying longitudes are broken because they&#039;re ambiguous over latitude? I compile some data about conference hashtags: http://go-to-hellman.blogspot.com/2009/06/conference-hashtags-dont-evolve.html

Also, remember that utf8 is an encoding, not a character set, so there&#039;s no such thing as a UTF8 character. Unicode characters are 2 bytes, not 4, and please don&#039;t mix up ascii and hexadecimal.

Isn&#039;t blogging wonderful, you can use your readers as fact-checkers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob,</p>
<p>Let me get this straight: you think hashtags are broken because they are ambiguous over time? Isn&#8217;t that a bit like saying longitudes are broken because they&#8217;re ambiguous over latitude? I compile some data about conference hashtags: <a href="http://go-to-hellman.blogspot.com/2009/06/conference-hashtags-dont-evolve.html" rel="nofollow">http://go-to-hellman.blogspot.com/2009/06/conference-hashtags-dont-evolve.html</a></p>
<p>Also, remember that utf8 is an encoding, not a character set, so there&#8217;s no such thing as a UTF8 character. Unicode characters are 2 bytes, not 4, and please don&#8217;t mix up ascii and hexadecimal.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t blogging wonderful, you can use your readers as fact-checkers?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Styles</title>
		<link>http://dynamicorange.com/2009/07/01/why-hash-tags-are-broken/comment-page-1/#comment-8057</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Styles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:33:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dynamicorange.com/?p=504#comment-8057</guid>
		<description>Thanks for pointing out the #fb thing, that explains a lot.

In terms of the devices, I wonder how long that issue will persist given how mobile devices are becoming more and more capable web tablets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for pointing out the #fb thing, that explains a lot.</p>
<p>In terms of the devices, I wonder how long that issue will persist given how mobile devices are becoming more and more capable web tablets.</p>
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